Mixing Light Interview Series

Hi everyone, I'm Kali Bateman for Mixing Light

and I'm here today talking with Aurora Shannon

who's a colourist at Company 3 in Vancouver. We met

each other many years ago now when she trained

me when I was working for DNEG. We both worked

there at the same time and I was really fortunate

to be trained by Aurora. She's extremely clever and

to be trained by Aurora. She's extremely clever and

has an amazing eye. So she taught me everything

I know about VFX colouring and I'm extremely

grateful to her. And I'm talking to her today

about the work that she's been doing with Company 3

but also the other work that she's doing as a

but also the other work that she's doing as a

mentor to up-and-coming filmmaker colourists and as

well sort of how she got her start and where

her amazing career has taken her so far. So

recently I've watched a few things that Aurora's

graded and they're absolutely beautiful. Some

recent series work that she's been doing through

Company 3 shows like Sweet Magnolias and Under the

Bridge and they're both absolutely stunning.

They've got gorgeous contrast, they've got

beautiful saturation levels. So yeah why don't

beautiful saturation levels. So yeah why don't

we start there? I would love to know anything

you're able to share about the grades for those

programmes. So they're both really really nice

shows to work on. They're both quite feminine

shows like Sweet Magnolias about these three women

who are best friends who live in this

fictional small town which is like it's essentially

it's a fantasy of American suburban life and they

have their ups and their downs but you know it's

always good in at the end of the day kind of thing.

Under the Bridge in some ways is almost the

complete contrast. It's about a group of teenage

girls. It's set on a set about a really horrific

true story that happened here in British Columbia

and it's almost a total opposite. It's not

wholesome, it's teenage

friendship gone bad, gone very

very as bad as it can get. So you've got these two

kind of very contrasting stories but what they

both have is they both have this quite beautiful,

gentle, feminine cinematography

and that's just literally that's just what we

follow through in the grades.

So for both of those shows they both have their own

bespoke LUTs which is obviously the starting

point of any look. The Sweet Magnolia it was a LUT

that I inherited. It was my first project here

season three when I came to company 3

Vancouver and it's a very soft just the right

amount of contrast, just the right amount of

saturation, warmer tone. It is shot and set

in Georgia so it's got that kind of that warm

southern american tone and that was developed

by the DP Brian Johnson with Colourfront for the

show. Both HDR shows so obviously

have a HDR version of that. And then the LUT for

Under the Bridge is a bespoke company 3

LUT. I'm not going to say which but it's featured

on quite a few company 3 shows

as a starting point for the developers. So you

start with that LUT and then it gets

developed towards that vision. In this case the

main creative is the EP and the show creator Quinn

who also directed a couple of the episodes. And

this is, I kind of don't really like

using the word filmic because film is a format it's

not a colour palette. But it is that kind

of that typical filmic kind of Kodak look. So the

story is set in the 90s. In the 90s if you went

to the cinema your film would be shot and projected

to you in celluloid. So I think it was really

you know she really wanted the film to not only be

set in the 90s, look like it's in the 90s,

but almost feel like you're watching something from

the 90s. The attention to detail is amazing.

So as someone who grew up in the 90s I'm like I had

that, I had that, I had that.

It really really is quite amazing. But again you

know she had this really really dark story

and it would have been so easy to go dark with it

and she didn't. She wanted to go soft and feminine.

She wanted to have those moments of femininity,

fairness in the photography and in the grade.

There are all these pastel tones throughout so

pinks and yellows and blues and

and mints and wherever it is in the art direction

of the cinematography it was just my job to

let it come through and emphasise it. Well I think

you succeeded beautifully.

It's got that lovely softness to it but it also has

this gorgeous curve that has a real contrast

through the mids. So the skin always looks right,

it always looks dimensional and 3D

and yet the shadows never get too

low. Yeah I've begun to describe,

one of the things that's really nice about working

for a company at Company 3 is you just have this

catalogue of LUTs. It's extraordinary things have

at your disposal and when I've you know

raffa it just being like this is the show, this is

the LUT use it. You're actually picking and

developing the LUT and I've begun to talk in very

untecknical terms about LUTs in terms of

thickness and thinness. It's something I feel like

I've become quite sensitive to and I think it's

what you're eluding to is sometimes you feel like

okay it's low contrast but I'm not feeling it.

There's kind of not something in the middle of the,

there's not this richness

in the middle of the image. It kind of to me, the

only way I can describe it is it feels kind of thin

and then on the other hand it's like well I'm

looking at my waveform and it's flat but it

doesn't look flat so it doesn't feel flat. Yeah I

completely understand what you're saying there

with the thickness it's got like a real presence to

it and it's got a density in the colours and

yeah just stunning. So when you work with those

LUTs are you working underneath or over or

combination? I tend to always have my LUT at the

very end so I'm always working underneath my LUT

obviously unless it's an input LUT but I tend to

always have it at the very end and I'm also

beginning any grain so under the bridge we use

grain extensively throughout it and actually

different types of grain. You don't actually change

the LUT or the colour palette or even the

look that much because we go back in time we then

we go to the 70s and we go to 50s

we have even flashback sequences within the 90s so

we use grain to signal, try to signal to the

audience that this is a different time but without

doing a really obvious look. So one of the things

that I was playing around with is do I put my grain

before or after the LUT and what I really

came to the conclusion with on this show is I think

now I prefer it after the LUT so I'd go

grain, LUT, grain. Yeah perfect so those texture

elements aren't being given the same curve as the

colour elements that kind of makes sense in terms

of you know if it was a celluloid process how it

would kind of work. It's just yeah gorgeous work so

with the Sweet Magnolias where you inherited

the look was it a matter of kind of working out

what the colour journey of the previous seasons

was and staying quite close to that or were you

able to deviate a little bit? So Brian decided

that he wanted a new look from season three going

forward he wanted a new LUT this was the new LUT

so I actually graded episodes one and two to match

to match the previous season and we went

through the reviewing so that isn't what I want. So

which was completely fine you know it was a

learning curve for me you know it was literally my

first job it was my second week. Oh wow. So

yeah that that before you start phone

call with the DP is really important

but it's totally new look and honestly you know

Brian knows what he wants so the LUT was what he

wanted the CDLs were what he wanted I mean I was

for the most part on that show I'm really just

polishing the CDLs like I'm polishing the CDLs I'm

you know just some windows to bring down

the light he's very sensitive to anything he feels

is over lit or kind of studio lighting or anything

like that a few little fixes here and there I don't

really don't think it's a show I can take

very much credit for.

Well I think that sometimes

knowing when not to do something

can be actually harder. Yes it does take a very

light touch. Yeah yeah yeah beautiful and so for

those listening the CDLs are the files that come

from set and so if you've listened to the interview

that I did with Fergus Halley who is an amazing

dailies colourist out here

he or a dailies colourist

would be grading everything on set and usually

having conversations with the DP around that

and then we're seeing here what happens in the DI

sometimes those CDLs are blown away

but sometimes and ideally really they're brought

into the DI and used either as inspiration or as

a starting point. Yeah so I will always use the

CDLs for a starting point if I feel that they're

useful and I think all Mads all of the time they

are useful particularly when you're doing

the dailies and the finishing as part of the same

company and you've been able to be part of that

initial kind of camera test, look day, set the LUT

before the daily starts.

For me personally why would

I not use them you know like it's work. Absolutely.

It's been done someone spent time on this it's been

paid for and for me personally it really does just

give you that head start really.

And it's sort of when the system works you know

because that's the idea isn't it that's why people

do dailies it's not to throw it away it's not just

you know lip service to the production it's

actually to start that creative thought and you

know when it works it does carry through and those

conversations from the very beginning become part

of the end. It does and also I think it's I mean

this isn't the main reason but it is a nice

consequence of it you know it's so much nicer

for the people doing the dailies knowing that their

work is being used and not just being thrown away

and you know when I'm in early to get a head start

and they're leaving a bit later and we cross

paths I can be like you know yeah we're using the

CDLs and they're great thank you you know.

And that's part of coming up in this industry isn't

it because a lot of people cut their teeth

in dailies and when you get a chance to get that

kind of feedback I imagine it's quite satisfying

and also gives you a chance to help them if it's

not landing if you don't get that feedback how

are you meant to improve? Yeah exactly I mean if I

had my way and I've discussed it but it's just

not possible I think the scheduling points of view

you know I would I would hand the project

over to them first to kind of you know almost like

finish their job you know their path

um because they do do a tremendously good job but

obviously when you're grading entire

takes rather than whatever seconds get picked in in

the cut it's never going to be

perfect you know but it doesn't mean that they

can't do perfect once they've got a path.

Oh well that's a lovely idea and hopefully the

scheduling works out and you can do that at some

point and I think that just goes towards your

nature as a mentor and somebody who's very very

good at training people I've been on the other side

of that and you've got a real skill for it.

So while we're talking about it can you tell me a

little bit about the mentoring that you're doing

through your old university and also through the

Vancouver post-gi. Yeah so I was very very

lucky I got to go to Ravensbourne which is part of

the university London now in the UK really really

good university I owe a huge huge debt to I

wouldn't have even known

that colour grading existed

or the lab where I first started existed if I

hadn't have gone there and they're really lucky

to have the same tutors that I have so they're

still there. They have several mentoring schemes

and I've participated in several of them the big

one at the moment is called SEEDS

so it's for people I'm not sure exactly what it

stands for it's basically with people

additional barriers entering the industry so it

could be minority it could be neurodivergence

it could be disability for example just people that

need a little bit of extra bespoke guidance

just for them. But I've also done a lot of

unofficial mentoring like I don't want to get

completely undated but I usually reply to every

message I get on LinkedIn for example

and you know I usually especially when I was in

London was going for a lot of Coffees

because I get bored and I like to talk to people so

people usually ask me for a Coffee I'll go for one

so I did a lot of unofficial mentoring and I also

did a lot for other students at Ravensbourne

unofficially as well and I'm now doing the same

thing here in Vancouver the Vancouver

Post Alliance so their mentoring is a little bit

different it's usually for people who are a few

more years into their career than students or

graduates. I've got to be honest it's probably

students and graduates who enjoy mentoring most

just because I feel like there's more

there's more advice to give and the advice makes a

bigger impact you know. I understand completely

you're taking them from the exponential curve you

know it's really really sharp but whereas

when you get a little bit further on your gains are

smaller. Or sometimes it's like yeah just

hold on in there and that's all you can do. Yeah

keep going. But there's a few things that I've

noticed that kind of bit the do's and don'ts. So

one of the things that I've noticed unfortunately

is I feel a lot of young people are getting not the

best advice from their universities

on let's say for example somebody wants a job they

want to become a colourist and they want to do it

what I guess now is the old-fashioned way of

assisting colourists you know make client services

at IO, assistant colourist, unicolorist daily is

the effect of colourist. You know the kind of path

that we've both taken and what a lot of these

colleges and universities tell them to do is

to send the CV out saying that they are colourists

and it's all about the demo reel. And I met this

young one woman say for a whole year she'd been

trying to get a job in London it's just a runner

like anything and she couldn't and she was

convinced it was because

her reel wasn't good enough.

And I was explaining to her no one cares what your

reel looks like. Like at that point when you're

like wanting to enter the industry to get a job to

then get a job as an assistant colourist.

It's nice if you have one you know it shows an

interest probably no one's even gonna like it.

What I want from you is a CV that

shows me you can hold down a job.

So put your one year of working a TesCo in

there because that shows you turned up and

followed instructions and held down a job for a

year. And I want to know what your skill set is.

Do you know what time code is? Do you know what

frame rates are? Do you know what raw camera

codecs are? You know can you import and export a

CDL or an EDL? What software do you know? Rate?

Do you have an understanding? Have you used it? How

much have you used it? And really what this is

is this is all the skills that I'm looking for in

an assistant colourist. All the skills that I'm

going to have to teach that assistant colourist.

They don't already have done. So I get a CV like

that and it's the same for assistant editor jobs as

well. I can look at that and say I can have

them where I need them in three weeks or four weeks

or two months. When I get a CV that says

I've graded 12 music videos I have no clue as that

person's actual technical skill set.

I've got no idea how long it's going to take to

train them. If they've graded 12 music videos

as well, great. That kind of indicates what the

usage of that software package has been.

But it's almost a checklist. So anyway I gave her

this advice. She redid her CV. She sent it to me.

Yep that's great. It was two or three weeks later

she was offered a job at Envy as an assistant colourist

not as a runner. Yeah so and it was just it was

frustrating for me because I see this she's just

been given the wrong advice you know. And with

the right advice she got immediately because she

had every skill. I'm like I want you as my

assistant colourist. You know she had all the

skills but to her she also wasn't valuing. You know

she didn't know that this list of skills

actually has a value because it's just normal

right. You just import it, you export it.

No it's not the necessary this big thing but it is

but it might not feel like it you know.

Right yeah and I think that's something that people

who know quite a bit fall for all the time

is that the more you know the less you think you

know because you're aware of what you don't know.

Whereas if you just know like one tiny little thing

you're like I'm an expert.

Yeah and then the other thing is the reels. Like I

said at that point in your career a reel

probably doesn't really matter. It's not that

important. Obviously if you're a freelancer

trying to get work especially commercials working

it's absolutely vital. It's your

bread and butter. But I was talking to some other

colourists about okay so you're applying for

jobs in assistant colourist. You have the

opportunity to submit a reel. Of course you want

to submit a reel because you want to take that

opportunity to show your work. Well what is a

useful reel? Because the other thing I then find is

the reels I'm like okay there's a series of

images. I've got no idea what they are. I've got no

idea what they look like. I don't know what

you've done to them. I don't even know how many

projects I can't. I literally can't make any

assessment of skill from from this. Whereas if you

have a reel where let's say you have a flow of

reel. Again this is for assistant colourist work

not colourist work. Let's say you have four or

five shots taken from a scene and next to each

other in the scene. Now I know if you can balance

and match up. I can look at that and see it's very

good. Now let's say we have a longer form project

and you've taken a shot from each thing and you put

the next to each other. I'd be like

oh you've made a number of variations of the same

look which are both different and consistent.

Another skill set has been demonstrated. Then you

have some mishmash of lots of different looks.

I'm not so different but okay yeah you can do lots

of different phrases. I've got some sense

and I've also had enough time on each project. I

think sometimes there's this idea that

shows have to be really really quick and really

fast paced. Sometimes I do think it's good to

give people a moment to actually register what it

is that you've worked on.

Even if it's just three or four projects that's

fine that's okay. I mean I think some of the things

that you've covered there are really interesting.

So in terms of the skill set of an assistant

colorist it's less about that artistic creative

kind of vision which you can develop over time

and you can develop your eye and you can develop

those techniques. But it seems that you're sort

of saying that the more fundamental things there

are matching, balancing, consistency,

being able to work to a brief.

These things are quite technical and dry

and you're not necessarily going to learn them on

your own doing music videos in your bedroom.

What I see is when I started there was only one way

to become a colorist. That was to join a company

like Company Free as a runner, work your way up,

try and get in the grading suite, get a position

as an assistant colorist. That was the only way to

do it because there was no kit at home.

You couldn't do it at home, there were no courses,

there were no online resources. That was the only

way you could do it. Now there are these two

pathways. There's this old school pathway

which still very much exists. There's this newer

pathway where you can do these online courses,

you can use online resources. There's so much

content being made, there's so many content

producers. I see students working on advertisements

for social media for really big brands and they're

getting paid for it. There's this other pathway as

well and they both have pros and cons.

The con of that second pathway from the work that I

see is the discipline, the consistency,

the balancing, the matching, all that really really

boring stuff is not impossible but it's

it's harder to learn because where are you learning

it from? You haven't got a senior or a mentor,

you're not sitting in a chair, you know, checking

shots, comparing new VFX shots against old VFX

shots and then matching the new VFX shots in or

doing dailies. You don't have that experience.

Again it's not to say you can't have a career going

that way, lots of people are and do

but I do tend to see it's did

more towards the short form.

Yes I couldn't agree more because also in short

form you can use a lot of maneuvers

to get somewhere but in long form there's often

restrictions on the workflow.

So if you're working on CDLs you've got your 10

values and you can't go outside of that,

there's no secondaries, you know, you can't muck

around and go oh I'll go cool this way and then

warm that way and then I'll come back to the

center. You just have to go straight to the goal

and same when you know we were VFX coloring there

were restrictions around what tools you could use

and how you could implement them so you had to get

really good at getting straight to the point.

You couldn't kind of meander around to get to a

good balance. And you've also, and this is one

of the most challenging parts I found of going from

a junior like this the biggest challenge

I had as a junior colorist having come up with the

assistant colorist in a DI finishing environment

which at the time was quite unusual, usually was

more difficult to be in a daily environment,

was I had a client next to me telling me what they

wanted, validating what I had done,

I had a grade, no problem. At the moment I didn't

have that person next to me, I didn't know what to

do. Like I've got an image, I've got the tools, how

should it look? I don't know. Does it match? Well

I kind of think it does, it does on the waveform

but does it? Is it good? No idea.

And then that was a lack of experience, right? That

was a lack of time in the chair,

the specific time in the chair alone. And that's

one of the reasons why I went into the effects

grading because I knew I was going to get that

time, I was going to be forced,

I was going to be forced

to figure it out by myself.

So let's talk about that start of your career and

how you came up in the DI suite as an assistant.

I mean we've talked about this previously and

you've got some amazing stories of the people

that you worked with at the time and you know the

rooms that you were in are pretty phenomenal so

anything you can share about that I'd love to hear.

Yes I had probably the most extraordinary timing

and luck I've ever heard of the start of my career.

I was doing work experience at a small

laboratory off of Border Street in London and I

went there because they had the lab timers,

the telephony, colorist and the DI colorist, it was

the only place I had all of this. I

was like this is where I'm going,

this is where I'm going to land. So I went there

and a runner walked out, they didn't even walk out,

they just texted that they quit and I asked for her

job and the guy who became my boss didn't

really want to give me the job. I think he thought

I was a bit of a precocious brat which I probably

was. Nothing wrong with that. But anyway he was

kind of desperate so he gave me the job

and my chief's were like yeah sure

just as long as you submit your work.

I had a term left on my degree, go work, this is

the point of the course. So I was supposed to be

looking after the telephony suites but of course I

didn't want to be in the telephony suites, I wanted

to be in the DI suite. So I was always in the DI

suite and the first colorist I assisted was Robin

Pipsi who is just an absolute phenomenal legend of

a colorist and he was doing or they were doing,

this was like just a room in the back of a lab that

almost everyone ignored. I knew what was in there.

None of the other runners knew or cared. So I was

in there and I was talking to him

and then Quantum of Solace comes up. So this room

in the back of this lab becomes company 3

London. Eventually it goes through a few names

first but it's associated and he basically,

I think he wanted me as an assistant colorist but he

basically says we're going to need our own

client services. This was the end, this was the

excuse. So then I became their own dedicated

client services. Then Laurent Rohan, the color

scientist and technical director was like

I'm not having you sit around making cups of tea.

He gets me in the scanning and recording room and

I'm doing all the dance, matometer readings and I'm

changing lab roles for the lasers and

lacing the Arri scanners. So I'm having a whale of a time.

So much fun. I've just about graduated,

not even had the ceremony and then it's like right

you're going to be Stefan Nakamura's

color assistant. He's coming over the finished

Quantum of Solace and he has to have an assistant.

Now I have no assistant skill set whatsoever. I

don't know how to do anything on resolve

because it's fine. Just go sit next to him.

So my job as assistant colorist was essentially

just always just sit there and talk.

But of course in all of that I just absorbed so

much information and he has one thing Nakamura

has is the most phenomenal, I mean he has a huge

amount of skills and talents. The one thing he has

is the most phenomenal work ethic. You know you

want to work on these kind of films, this is the

work ethic that you have to have. So he really

impaired that on me and yeah it was just

extraordinary just watching this film being made

from the very start. Literally the lab roles of

film coming in and being scanned. To the very end

sitting with him and he actually taught me how to

calculate how on or off paying the print was and

I'm sitting there with my paper.

So it was unbelievably lucky. It's almost like

doing a master's or something.

But at that point then that was it. I was an

assistant colorist. I was able to assist Rob

Pitsy on many films. I think I did another one with

Nakamura. I did a couple with Stefan Sonnesfeld.

I did one with Mitch Paulson. Yeah and then later

we were joined by Adam Glassman and then later

from that was a junior then but Greg Fisher and

Paul Ensey. So yeah it's like a really amazing

group of people and it's not just the colorist but

it's also you know Lauren was an amazing technical

director. Then I was joined by John Cortell who is

absolute legend. I think even the

Academy Award winning color scientist.

You'd never know to meet him. He's so humble but

he is. And then you know it's engineers and it's

editors and then the client. So you know

like sitting in a room next to Anson Dove-Mantle

who's basically telling you how he sets up his

shot for lighting. And then the next day someone's

like oh you know he's doing a talk at the BFI and

it's only 30 pounds. And I'm like what's even a

suite with him all afternoon? Why would I pay

30 pounds to go? But I was realizing moments like

that you really realize what you're just getting.

It's just part of your kind of daily working life.

It's stuff that people would

you know go out for the evening to go and listen

to. But that's just

absolutely the best start anyone

can hope to have. And I think it really speaks

volumes about what you get as an assistant

and why working for bigger companies even if it

takes a little while to get to that goal

is a really solid way to get there. Because you

learn so much clearly. You get so many

opportunities to understand different parts of the

process and you get a chance to get good at

it without all of the responsibility being on your

shoulders. Because you hear stories about people

getting an amazing chance but it's very sink

or swim. And I think it really depends on the day

of the week for anyone whether or not they've got

the ability to get through that kind of

it's not a sustainable way to work. It's not me. I

just know that's not me. That whole

being a freelancer particularly trying to learn

your craft and develop your status and your

profile is a free that is not me. It's just it's

not my personality. I know it's not.

I did have a moment so I left company 3 for about

seven years. I just hit a ceiling where it's like

I'm not going forward. I'm not learning anything.

If anything I kind of feel like I'm drifting

backwards because ultimately you can only progress

as far as the work that there is and the work

that's available to you. And I was in that spot I

think a lot of people can find themselves in

where you're like well I'm too experienced to just

be doing assistant work. I'm

too ambitious. I can want to do more and I can do

it but I can't do that just yet. There's got to be

something in between. And it was a really good time

to be a freelancer in London because the

kit had just become available but very few people

knew how to use it yet. So you could make a lot of

dough. I was just like I'm tired. Like I'm worn out.

I'm tired. I don't want to be running my own

business and invoicing people and chasing money and

chasing work and going into one place one

day and putting this hat on and go and there's also

this underlying thing of kind of just knew

I wasn't quite ready. Like I could probably blag

it. I could probably do a good enough job.

But I knew that there was a block missing to my

experience that I had to fill in fast. And I think

that's when Binn Rona came back to finishing. I'm

still completely terrified. Like that sink or swim

feeling I just don't think it ever leaves you. I

get it at the start of every single show I do.

I'm like this is it. This is it. This is going to

be the one that ruins me. You know.

But I at least knew I had all of the pieces. I'm

like okay I know I can do the clients stuff. I

know I can do the social stuff. I know I can do my

balance. I know I can do my match. I know I

can do my windows. I know I can. I've got all the

pieces. I've just got to put it together.

Yes. And I hate to bring it back to gender. But I

have noticed and I also have experienced this as

a woman is that sense of I'm not ready. I need a

little bit more. I need to be better educated.

I need to get that experience first. Whereas I find

that a lot of men will jump a little

jump a little bit more like head first into those

single swim moments. Like even you know

hearing stories of people who don't know a grading

system particularly well and just kind of talking

their way into a suite and saying oh yeah I can do

it. No worries. I would be absolutely beside

myself. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. I'd

have to go in for a month

unpaid to get up to speed.

And I don't know like I hate I hate to bring it

back to gender but I do think that there is a

gendered element there of feeling confident and the

point at which you just say I'm good enough now.

I'm gonna do it. And I suspect that you were

probably good enough at that point.

But it's everything you did in between gave you

even more. Yeah I mean I think on the gender

thing I mean there are literally studies that say

that you know if a guy fulfills 40% of a job

description he'll apply for it. And if a woman like

90 she won't because she's missing 10 or something.

So there's definitely something there. It is always

hard to know what's personality and what's

gender. But there's also a little element of and

this was really when I was at DNEG. I spent

a lot of time at DNEG. I was very happy there. I

got to live a lot of life. I got to travel.

I got to have weekends. It was wonderful. But there

was also an element of I was waiting for

the right opportunity. I kind of knew I could I

don't want to be rude but this is how it is.

I could go down a level in calibre of work and and

be a finishing. I kind of knew that option

was available to me. But I knew once I did that it

would be really really hard to get back up

to what I actually wanted to work on. Same thing.

You know I spent longer being an assistant

colourist before I became a junior. I probably

could have gone down a level. There's always this

option when when you're working for a top tier

company or a top tier calibre production to go

kind of down a level in calibre and upper level in

job title. There's always there's often always

this option and sometimes it's the right move to do

right. But for me personally I never felt

it was the right move. I felt like this is the

calibre of work that I want to work on

and I'd rather have a lower job title and even

potentially lower pay to be on that rather than

you know to be in the top seat but on something I

don't really want to work on. And there's probably

an element of status there as well. That the

calibre of work that you

work on it gives you status.

Sure I mean I feel

like there are different worlds in a way

and you could either be like big fish in a small

pond or small fish in a big pond

and you chose small fish in a big pond but while

you were that small fish you were actually

getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Yes and I

sort of by chance and accidentally found myself

being a big fish and actually in a bit of a small

pond. So Vancouver is not a crowded market for

colourists or color grading. You know there's

pretty much there's ours there's picture shop

both employ a max of three or four colourists at

any one time. That is pretty much the population

of finishing colourists of Vancouver. There's a

couple of smaller companies but again you know

going back to this luck and timing I just happened

to physically be in Vancouver when they needed a

colourist and they kind of weren't any like I'm not

saying they weren't any other candidates but

you know the big company you know if you're a dailies

colourist it's very easy to get shoehorned as

you're a dailies colourist. You're a VFX colourist

that's what you do. You're an assistant, you're a

junior. It's always an element of luck about how

you come up to the next level. Sometimes it's

moving country you know I went from junior to the

VFX by okay it was an open job and a website I

typed it but I moved country. That's how I went up

that level. This was a case of being in the right

place at the right time and again sorry to bring it

back but with a certain caliber of

employment history and credit list which brings

about an element of trust. You know it's the same

thing if I'm you know if I'm looking to hire an

assistant because probably more now we're talking

about a colourist you know I look at their CV and

I'm like oh well that was on the TV right so I know

that they can work till that's done. That was in a

cinema. I know they can work till that's done.

That was for Netflix. I know

they can work till that's done.

And I think at that level there's more technical

processes to understand and to

you know shepherd the project through. You

mentioned before that the

two series that we discussed

were HDR, SDR. So knowing those workflows if you've

done jobs that are for Netflix or Hulu or

what have you you're probably familiar with Dolby

Vision workflows and HDR XT and

you're on top of these new workflows and these new

technologies that seem to be

moving at lightning speeds.

Yeah and again it's you know

let's say you're someone you've blagged your way

into the suite, you've got your little box of

tricks, you've made this thing look spectacular,

you've got all the social skills and the client

skills and everyone loves you and then it goes off

and it gets rejected by the network. Every

shot has a QC error, the HDR gets rejected on

technical grounds. I mean it'd be a complete

enough a disaster.

And can you tell me a little bit about when you

moved to Company 3 for the second time

in Vancouver in your current title. I noticed that

on one of the shows that you were on

My Big Fat Greek Wedding 3 that you were grading

along with Stefan Sonenfield

Did you find that there were a lot of opportunities

for learning these workflows and you know

obviously understanding the Company 3 way of doing

things. Was that an enriching experience for you?

Under the Bridge is also a shared project with

Stefan's. He did episode one and I did

Am doing two to eight. One of the things I found at

Company 3 is in terms of like the editorial

side of stuff, everything outside of the grading

room there is a Company 3 way of doing it right

and of course it changes with technology but it's

pretty consistent and it's pretty consistent

globally and it has to be because projects are just

Pinging all over the place. Inside the grading

room every colorist gets the grade how they grade.

There is a lot of difference between how different

colorist grade. Even the things that you consider to

be technical but still are subjective like doing

your Dolby Vision trim. Do you analyze each shot

separately? Do you find one analysis you like for

the scene on one shot and apply that? I heard

something about someone analyzing a

grayscale chart and applying that to the whole

thing. The colorists have the freedom to work

how they work. There's also a huge amount of

opportunity to learn from other colorists as well.

Sometimes you do an indie film and they

want it to look like an indie film. Sometimes they

want it to look like a glossy Hollywood film.

Sometimes they want it to look

like a glossy Hollywood film.

And you're like what do you mean look like an

indie? Well there are kind of

things. So you know sometimes

they're a little bit grungy, a little bit

mushy or whatever that kind of

trend is or something like that.

But I have noticed the tendency and is with these

kind of higher budget, higher status,

is the importance really really

really seems to be on colour separation.

Like that's that's if someone wants to ask me what

makes a Hollywood film, a Hollywood film

from a colour grading perspective, I would say it

doesn't matter how strong the look is,

it doesn't matter how grungy the blacks is, how

indie look they've gone or how much they've

dirtied up in the LUT or the dailies. When

you look at that end result you're going

to have perfect colour separation every single frame

That's a really great tip for anyone who's

colouring and it comes right back to those

fundamentals of balancing because when you

have a well-balanced image you can then do what you

want to it because you've got that foundation

there and you have created that colour separation

and you see it you know on a parade if you get

your scan or your original material and

everything's in the red

channel and then you pull it down

and pull some some cyan back in and all of a sudden

everything just is revealed. Well sometimes you

know sometimes you go a bit further than that you

know there's there's a colour there's an inherent

colour separation which is in a perfectly balanced

shot and then you can always go for a slightly

high part which is where you're actually separating

the colours further and one of the

ways really really simple is you just key your

blacks like key your blacks put a little bit of

blue in them pop pop now if your shot isn't

perfectly balanced it's not gonna react in that

way the other thing is if you haven't learned how

to match and balance naturally you're using your

keys to match your balance I mean I'm of the

opinion there's only so many keys and windows

you can put on an image and tell it just kind of

falls apart or looks really digital in place

so you kind of already use it up you know yes I

call that overcooked yeah I and I get there all

the time especially doing short form because

everyone from the agency is like oh that thing

there and that thing there and individually yeah

individually you go okay all of these are good

corrections but you step back and go oh it's really

overcooked now and it's really not tied to what

was shot anymore so I completely understand what

you're saying there and I think it comes back to

that idea of complexity not being better than like

sometimes you need to be complex but in an

ideal world I don't I don't think that adds

anything yeah especially with material it's very

well shot yes I mean the difference I mean the

difference between I've done quite a variety of

work and in and the wide variety of work in the

last year and a half as partly because of the

strike the strike really affected us here up in

Vancouver so it got to a lot more indie work and

I mean like real indie work which was great and it

was really amazing to work on some films that's

really great stories but they you know they were

more challenging to grow like there is a big

difference between something that's been shot with

tens if not a hundred or something million

plus dollars spent on it and something which is

grading with us because they want to voucher

a film festival you know there's a big difference

but I think it is it is absolutely doable

you know if you know how to do the tools that's

doable but yes you've often got to do

much more to the image and you've got to do much

more on to each individual image and which is

bespoke to each image yeah so having like a scene

instead of saying everything's already pretty

pretty good you might you might need a bunch of

windows or keys to just match one angle to another

before you look at the scene absolutely but each

one of those should have a point and purpose to

them which couldn't be achieved in a different one

at least for windows and keys some people

like to be very very clean and only have one or two

nodes that have any kind of offset or lift

down a game right like no no you can't have more

than that I don't see any reason to not have as

many as you want I often have a lot I find it very

useful for myself to be able to toggle something

on and off and I especially find clients like to

see stuff being toggled up you know they want

they've made their note they want to see the before

and the after another thing I find very

useful with doing that is let's say I'm really

struggling to match two shots because they're

just so inherently different if you know like oh

I'm too warm I'm too cool you know like

the this perfect line is so thin you can't hit it

and then I'm like okay let's go a bit too far

going to key bring down the gain and start to

dissolve I love this so much dissolve that

nodes opacity and with it the intensity of my

correction and that's how I'm gonna get it but

I can't do that if it's in a node do something so

that we'll find I'm tuning um I've got no

problem with having lots and lots of notes and then

of course you get it right and then

you can apply it to the rest of your thing um but

you don't want to get in a pickle

that's the other thing and I think so I think a lot

of lots of it and again the working with

other colorists working under other colorists the

experience of working on more projects I mean

ideally the aim of the game I think or the aim of

my game is developing a methodology right so

that doesn't mean that you're doing the same thing

on every show or in every shot it's not

you know bunging a bullet grade on or like your

version of a space but it's having some

sense of process of how you approach something I

think this is really important for long form

and the more long the long form for episodic it's

essential I don't know how anyone could grade

a series without having some kind of methodology um

I think you're getting a real pickle there so

you know like this is what I'm gonna do if you're

on resolve on the group grade this is what I'm gonna

do on my clip my first notice my CDL I often end

up especially on the higher budget

shop stuff even ended up with a kind of a no graph

template once you've figured out what the client

wants and what they tend to bump up against in the

review you know you know what they don't like

about what's been shot it even ends up with like a

bunch of turned off nodes kind of doing the same

things which you turn on and off or um other things

on resolve I found really useful that

times per methodology is there's this thing where

you preserve a number of nodes right so it means

you can pop in case grades but you can save nodes

say one and two which is your cdo and your match

or you can do it in your group which is great if

your group's like you're seen by scene um

so I find figuring out how where you want to put

things how you want to put them

because what you really don't want to be doing is

spending time dragging and dropping nodes

onto each individual shot or getting into a pickle

and you're like oh I did it in the group

for this scene but I did it on the clip that's

enough I want it panning off that's all that kind of stuff

I think that's so useful it's that's the

craft side of it I think and every colorist is

going to have their own methodology but you're in

the process of refining yours yeah and with

every show it changes you know every show every

person I work with you know it I feel like it

deepens my understanding of an image like you know

on under the bridge sometimes their eyes

catch the lighting the the not the practical

lighting the set lighting and it creates this

really small but really intense especially in HDR

kind of thing of light I don't like that and I

was like I haven't noticed that but now you mention

it I'm like yeah it is better with that reduce so

then I'll go to the next HDR show and if I see the

same thing I'm gonna see it and and I'm going

to address it immediately and other things like

sometimes you feel so silly afterwards you're like

how did I not notice this but of course you're just

looking at you're like oh does their skin

tone match you're not looking at what their

eyeballs are doing.

and one thing I noticed on another show is I'm like

I'm lowering the contrast

and my saturation's going down but my client hasn't

asked me to put the saturation up so now I feel a

bit like you know am I allowed almost you know the

note is not to take the contrast down and put

the saturation up can you know is it rude or are

they going to be asking what I'm doing if I put

the saturation up back up then they go oh we've

lost the saturation let's put it up you know

lovely but but then from that I'm like well

actually hang on a minute maybe I should have a

node prepared to my little gallery that both brings

the contrast down and puts the saturation

up so the saturation stays exactly even and then I can dissolve that on and off with my gain

and that way I've almost invented a new tool

because in resolve you can't

my knowledge anyway do both at the same time right

but then that's my tool which does both at the

same time and then you can end up with like this my

almost like a gallery of these tools which you can

jump to really quickly and they're going to do exactly what you want they're going to behave

exactly how you want them you know
while you're in this live session

Yeah and when you are in the

live session I mean I've just from my experience

I've used resolve for close to 15 years and I

feel like when I'm on my own or with clients that I

know really well the tool disappears but I did

the tool disappears but I did a film with a famous

director and all of a sudden I felt like a

newborn baby and everything I was clicking buttons

wrong I was like pressing the wrong

thing on the control surface because I was nervous

and if you're working at that caliber all the time

I imagine that little toolkit that power grade

gallery or whatever it is

is really useful for doing those

quick confident client reassuring moves

because like you don't you don't want to move in

any way that spooks them you've got to keep their

confidence even more so when you're doing remote so

a lot of my grades in this remote I have zoom

I have the iPad and they can't see what's going

on like they can't see if it's crashed or saving

menus come after it's stuck in some mode usually

when someone's in the room they're like oh okay

you know I'll give her a minute it's it's doing

something you know it's fine but when you're in

the flow of a session multiple people in the room

in a hay or something and you're like

not doing what I want it to do and the panic can

kick in pretty quickly yeah

and that's not an ideal point from which to make

creative decisions you know when you I hate that

feeling and I think everyone's been there of like

oh my god I just want to show the swan on top of

the water and they can't see the legs but the legs

are going you know it's just not fun yeah

sounds you can always feel a bit worried I mean

there's an element of I guess performance

yeah to a live section you know how have you

performed did that go well of course the work's

fine but did the experience of that section hit

where you wanted it hit you know yeah and there

is a lot a lot to that and sometimes just get a day

and everything seems to be stacked against you

it does feel like that sometimes I often feel like

that if I'm having a technical problem

I remember recently I was in a session and I was

meant to have a particular plug-in licensed but

there was a problem with the license and there was

so much backwards and forwards around that

that I just couldn't focus on the creative and I

couldn't even be that you know fun person in the

suite and yeah it can be a problematic moment. Yeah

one thing I found different is say when I

first started features and broadcasts were two

separate divisions completely separate

separate clients, separate DPs, separate colorists

almost at some point even within the whole

asset the like company 3 separate companies now

it's just it's long form right episodic and

features pretty much together it's long form

colorists clients DPs

writers are moving through them

there's no barrier but what I have found is still a

very big difference is when I do a

Episodic generally speaking I'll grade the episode

and then we review the episode there's probably

some look there right at the beginning and then

there's a little bit of time for some notes and

that's the episode finish you go on to the next

episode and you do it over whereas with features

particularly indie features if they've got a 4 CR

package or they've got an 8 CR package they

want to be in that room for 40 or 80 hours.

and I remember one of the things we spoke about

was how in an ideal world

you would balance the shot then match your

balance shots and you then apply your grade because

that way you're not kind of a lot of it

comes back to color separation you're not you know

what's the difference between a grade and a watch

kind of thing so a lot of what that means is at

least I found that you end up doing all three of

those at the same time in the same process so

you're doing your your balance your match

and you're kind of LUT and sometimes you're

finishing as well kind of all in the same

path with a live studio audience which can feel

quite high pressured at sometimes but I think

again that's just an experience being a need to get

used to it because you know when I started

out and I was sitting next to people who had been

doing you know color grading for 20 years and who

had been doing finishing for 10 of those years I

mean that was Monday you know like that that's

just what they did day in day out whereas for me I

went from it's quite funny actually I went from

really struggling to grade without a client being

next to me so learning how to grade

without a client next to me

now having to almost relearn

not in terms of the skill set but kind of like the

time management and the okay yeah I remembered

that note we'll jump to that but I'm just going to

finish the shot here kind of again

I think everyone's going to relate to

that I think you've actually hit on a journey

that a lot of people go through right because

there's a massive difference between putting on

a podcast or putting on your favorite album being

snug in the room by yourself you control

the environment you've got some snacks it doesn't

matter what your face is doing doesn't matter what

you're saying you don't have to say anything and

you can just go right into those pictures

and go for it and if you want to get up and go to

the loo or if you want to walk around the block

and refresh your eyes yeah you can and then you

bring the client in and it's a whole different

ball game I actually so I didn't do it this year

which I actually really enjoyed it so it was a

bit disappointing but last year I did something

called we haven't made people crazy eight so it's

a filmmaking competition and what happens is people

pitch their short film ideas and the eight winners

get to make their films in I think it's eight days

which sounds like a lot but they're like

building sets and stuff these are properly made

films and then people like our companies they get

some funding and they get kind of gifted services

and stuff like I did two of them and they were

two short films you know it's been five and seven

minutes long I had four hours to grade them

so four hours to grade one one

day four hours to grade the other

which would not be crazy except you get five

filmmakers come in and they're all sleep

deprived and delirious because they've almost

finished and they've all got so many ideas and

honestly the projects are absolutely fantastic I

really really loved them we ended up with two

really really good looking pieces of work those

were crazy like you literally got someone with

you know you're going to be disqualified if you

don't stop and why should it be red it should be

exactly that was not good I kind of

came out this sweet in another color

so previously was like how

was I was like yeah that's crazy

well it's good to mix it up a bit and I mean

working through the strikes and working on a

bunch of indie projects and working on a bunch of

shorts I imagine that it gives you quite a breadth

of experience that at other times perhaps you

wouldn't be getting in that role

totally I mean totally if it wasn't for like the

quick clean anxiety of that situation

I would have really enjoyed it but um no it was it

was a really good opportunity for me to do

a much broader range of work I mean I was basically

hired to increase capacity on

episodic grading for what at the time was a

streaming boom and was

projected to be a continually

exponentially growing streaming boom so after I

joined about two months later the boom ended

and then there were the strikes um so really what

I'd signed up to do was was to be doing

you know episodic shows one episodic show after

another episodic show and what I ended up getting

to do was to do two really phenomenal episodic

shows and a bunch of features of very varying

budget you know all the way from Big Factory

Wedding to I'm trying to think what my lowest

budget was I think it's probably Takes the Village

um because the documentary set in

East Vancouver about a refugee Gansan family

growing up um which I think was sponsored by Telus

and kind of everything in between um and yeah again

you just learn something from from every

project and every person that I work with

especially DP always always learn something

can another little node goes in that gallery of

something to pull out um and another kind

and another kind of luck goes on the favorite list

of like okay this is a good luck for this but

this is how I grade with that lot um so yeah

because I've never done documentary before that

was the first documentary I'd ever done um Party

Pirate had some sections of claymation I've never

graded animation I've never graded animation

literally into a live action scene like it's

the same scene it's like whoa how how do I do this

you know um so I I did benefit a lot and also yeah

I got to do some music videos and commercials and I

think one of the things that I really loved is um

one of the features I did Valiant 1 which I think

is going to be released this year so it's certain

north-south chris minstler but was shot in BC so

that was it was quite a challenging grade from

making it look not only like different country um

but also completely different weather conditions

because they shot in BC thinking well we're

guaranteed to be overcast and rainy and it was

like blistering heatwave so it was a very

challenging grade but really phenomenal um

DP who actually shoots only on red which is

interesting because I feel like not a lot of

people are shooting on red at the moment or at

least here what we're getting in Vancouver

um and a very strong look he's a commercial DP um

so he came back with a couple of strikes

of strikes he came back with a couple of

commercials during the strike um which were

much appreciated and great I was like yeah he would

be fine um and tell so on that film where

it was red my understanding is that you created a

bespoke LUT for that one using the

red creative kit what was that process so it was

quite interesting so what happened was

this was another LUT originally that had been done

either by or for our dailies department

um which I had inherited but when I came and the

dailies looked absolutely fantastic

and it was originally going to be a HDR stream so

we would have just had a

HDR version but when I made

Converted it to P3 and I looked it in the theater

by the time we came to grade the one that's been

actually it just wasn't working it was it was too

heavy you know you can always like you can always

add contrast in it's very hard to kind of take it

out you know and I was like I love like how

the LUTs going it's just it's too strong to keep

so I took some advice and again this is one

thing that's wonderful about working with a company

you can knock on a suite and and go to a colorist

it's more senior than yourself and I worked

with an absolutely phenomenal um

cover called Anne Boyle and she looked at it and she

went that's worth a creative kit that's I reckon that's

what so we found the creative kit and we were able

to completely reconstruct the LUTs that

have been made essentially like a base LUT and a

bunch of input LUTs with different names some of

them are a touch odd um so we we rephrased it and

then we were able I was able to adjust how much of

each of these input LUTs and which base LUT these

input LUTs were going on to to create a more

bespoke version of the lot for the fee free but

then also I could adjust it on a person

basis as well what an amazing amount of control so

unbelievable I will now actually I did do

another short which was red now I get any red

project I'm straight for that phrase because

you know if I go to our I mean our imagery and

science team at scene one I go I want

a LUT that does this is in this is

RED they'll give me whatever I asked for

but I can't adjust it literally live in the room

with on on such you know on a scene by scene basis

And to have that skill which

is more of a color science skill

and you've brushed up against color science your

whole career and worked in very technical roles

that have required understanding of it and to be

able to get hands on with it and see how it can

be like an actually creative solution to a problem

as opposed to a bunch of like really scary

formulas in a white paper yeah I think I still find

it kind of scary I I've yet to meet anyone

that I think has an equal handle on both the

technical color side side of color and then

the subjective creative side of color you know I

think they're just fundamentally different types

of brain um I once considered I was like maybe I

should put the color scientist and I think it

lasted about one afternoon um that also goes along

with when I decided I was going to learn how to

use python that also lasted one afternoon um but

yeah I kind of the necessity of needing to

understand something in order to do what I want to

do creatively seems to kind of push

push me through it so I always say it's my

understanding of that extends as far

as it needs to and it seems not an inch more but um

I think that's um I think that's really

practical though because you've only got so many

hours in the day and there's only so much

bandwidth any one person has and if you're really

focused on your goal of being an incredible

colorist then going off and getting sidetracked

becoming a color scientist is not necessarily

going to get you there I also think it's it's how

you learn so like if something's abstract but I'm

trying to learn python it's like if you write this

script you'll be able to tell the time on this

clock to go back by 10 minutes what I don't want to

so therefore none of this is making any sense

to me whatsoever if I actually wanted to do that it

would probably make enough sense that I would

be able to do it but if python was going to help

you with that you know setting up your node graph

for something really practical I imagine you'd get

it if anyone can write python and can write that

please message me on linkedin and

we'll go for coffee and I'll buy it this time

well there you go you heard it here first and um if

anyone in the Vancouver area feels like buying

Aurora coffee it sounds like you've

um you've got a potential coffee date

so um can you tell me a little bit I feel like I've

taken a lot of your time up and I will wrap

things up quite shortly my first mentoring session

I ever did was supposed to be half an hour and it

lasted three hours so don't worry oh they're so

lucky um well I did want to just hear a little

bit about so you've obviously done some amazing

things and since we last saw one another

you've been kicking huge goals and doing beautiful

work now that the strikes are over in productions

ramped up again I know there's quite a few shows

that you've graded that haven't been released yet

but I also imagine there's a huge amount of stuff

coming up oh wow so what are you excited for so

the plan is I'm finishing under the bridge um sweet

magnolias is coming back to me for season 4 which

is a massive massive privilege because it's I think

the first show it's the first show that's

come back to me rather than been given to me you

know like it didn't have to come back to me it did

um so I'm hoping to manage as much of that as I can

and then I'm taking a year off to have a baby

that's what you do when

you're at the top of your career

oh well that's so awesome

oh any congratulations oh well that's I don't even

know what to say I'm just so excited for you

so yeah so that's my next year and we're hoping

we'll probably be spending a chance a bit in Europe

um kind of that's where our family is and maybe

even a little bit traveling

while we get we'll see. Oh you always manage to

squeeze a bit of traveling

So that's very exciting,

and then yeah I guess kind of after that my slate

is pretty pretty blank really um

I guess I just have to hope that

I've made enough good work now that

it speaks for itself in the year and a bit some

yeah I look it absolutely will. Talking as a mother

of a three-year-old now um when I came back from

Vancouver um I was seven months pregnant and I'd

been away for about a year and a half

and I was like oh my god I'm about to take another

six months off and everyone will have forgotten me

but you know as soon as I was back

everyone was ready to jump on again

and I think people actually love it

when you're a little bit unavailable

I'm just so excited for

you and I'm all about the working mums

fantastic. We'll see how it goes but you know I

think it's you know it's it's very easy

to always think of work in terms of work and only

work um and I think when you're first starting

out kind of going all the way back to when you're

first starting out it really is because that's how

you do it you don't make something of your career

by being one foot in and one foot out you know

you're all in but you know at a certain point life

has to happen or should should happen

or otherwise it's like well what's

the point in working hard you know

that's absolutely right yeah and when it comes to

family I just think you know

all of those previous generations problems of you

know oh I'm having a baby so I can't have a career

they're gone now and we can we can do both so why

why not why not be happy in both areas

well I think that's a really nice point to wrap it

up um I'm absolutely thrilled on all points

I'm so excited with the amazing career that you're

making for yourself and watching the beautiful

making for yourself and watching the beautiful

work that you're working on um and I'm really I

think I'll talk to you offline about your

mentoring because I really back that awesome all

mentoring because I really back that awesome

All right well thank you so much for having me

and um thank you for listening if

you've managed to get to the end of this

you've managed to get to the end of this

yes thanks guys thanks so much for joining me and

for Mixing Light I'm Kali Bateman